The Crypto Revolution: Bitcoin's Civil War & the Fight Against CBDCs

Let's see if this actually Let's see if this actually even tweeted out. Oh, there we go. even tweeted out. Oh, there we go. All right. We're live. All right. All right. We're live. All right. Hello, everybody. This is Aaron Day. This is the Aaron Day Show. This is our very first episode. I am actually producing this myself, This is Aaron Day. Hello, everybody. This is the Aaron Day Show. This is our very first episode. I am actually producing this myself, so I apologize in advance so I apologize in advance if there are any technical issues. if there are any technical issues. This show is all about stopping the march towards digital tyranny. And if you've been following me at all,

This show is all about stopping the march towards digital tyranny. And if you've been following me at all, I know some of you are new to this whole concept or you've read my book, The Final Countdown. In my opinion, I know some of you are new to this whole concept or you've read my book, The Final Countdown. In my opinion, the biggest single threat to the biggest single threat to human liberty is central bank digital currencies. human liberty is central bank digital currencies. Central bank digital currencies are essentially a programmable form of digital money that can be monitored, tracked, Central bank digital currencies are essentially a programmable form of

digital money that can be monitored, tracked, and censored by the government and censored by the government and can be used to control your behavior. It's the basis for social credit systems, and can be used to control your behavior. It's the basis for social credit systems, vaccine passports, the whole nine yards. vaccine passports, the whole nine yards. And I go into a lot of this in depth. in my book. And I go into a lot of this in depth. in my book. What I've been doing is going around the country, What I've been doing is going around the country, educating people on alternatives and the actual alternative and the way to protect yourself against CBDCs isn't at the ballot box,

educating people on alternatives and the actual alternative and the way to protect yourself against CBDCs isn't at the ballot box, which I have a very lengthy article at the Brownstone Institute about. It's actually by taking direct action. which I have a very lengthy article at the Brownstone Institute about. It's actually by taking direct action. It's by boycotting the It's by boycotting the dollar because it's the dollar, dollar because it's the dollar, it's fiat currency that's it's fiat currency that's going to be forced into becoming a digital form of fiat currency, which is CBDC. going to be forced into becoming a digital form of fiat currency, which is CBDC.

So I started this podcast to So I started this podcast to go and expand on what is in the book and what's in my workshop. go and expand on what is in the book and what's in my workshop. And because the CBDC landscape is changing at a fast rate, as are the alternatives, the crypto market in particular, And because the CBDC landscape is changing at a fast rate, as are the alternatives, the crypto market in particular, I want to make sure to give I want to make sure to give everybody in-depth information on everything that's going on. Just to let you know, everybody in-depth information on everything that's going on. Just to let you know, I am a fellow at the Brownstone Institute.

I am a fellow at the Brownstone Institute. And if you're not familiar with the Brownstone Institute, And if you're not familiar with the Brownstone Institute, they are really the front they are really the front lines for dissidents who are focused on sharing the truth. lines for dissidents who are focused on sharing the truth. The Brownstone Institute was started out of the COVID pandemic when basically no other organization was The Brownstone Institute was started out of the COVID pandemic when basically no other organization was really willing to stand up against the lockdowns, the mandates, really willing to stand up against the lockdowns, the mandates,

the censorship and the vaccine mandates and so forth. And so starting this year, the censorship and the vaccine mandates and so forth. And so starting this year, I became a fellow at the I became a fellow at the Brownstone Institute. Brownstone Institute. And I really encourage you And I really encourage you to take a look at their work and to consider contributing to the organization because it is a completely donor-led organization. to take a look at their work and to consider contributing to the organization because it is a completely donor-led organization. They don't have large institutional financial support. So please, I encourage you to consider that. And also, They don't have large

institutional financial support. So please, I encourage you to consider that. you can find out more about what And also, you can find out more about what I'm doing, the book, the workshop, and everything else at day2024.com. I'm doing, the book, the workshop, and everything else at day2024.com. I'm really excited today to have Kurt Wookert Jr. on as our first guest, I'm really excited today to have Kurt Wookert Jr. on as our first guest, particularly in light of particularly in light of everything that's going on with both CBDCs and Bitcoins. And as you'll learn today, if you aren't already familiar with it, everything that's going on with both CBDCs and Bitcoins. And as you'll learn today,

if you aren't already familiar with it, there is an ongoing civil war within Bitcoin that is culminating in a huge lawsuit right now in London, there is an ongoing civil war within Bitcoin that is culminating in a huge lawsuit right now in London, which pits COPA, which pits COPA, the Crypto Open Patent Alliance, the Crypto Open Patent Alliance, against Craig Wright over against Craig Wright over determining whether Craig Wright is Satoshi Nakamoto. determining whether Craig Wright is Satoshi Nakamoto. And there are a lot of And there are a lot of implications for that, which we are going to get into. implications for that, which we are going to get into.

I've known Kurt informally for about a decade. I've known Kurt informally for about a decade. We actually just met in We actually just met in person for the first time last year. I love his work. I've been following him very closely. person for the first time last year. I love his work. I've been following him very closely. And his background is Kurt's And his background is Kurt's a South Florida-based entrepreneur, investor, and Bitcoin advocate. a South Florida-based entrepreneur, investor, and Bitcoin advocate. He's the chief Bitcoin He's the chief Bitcoin historian publishing exclusively with CoinGeek. He leverages his experience in mining, business, historian publishing

exclusively with CoinGeek. He leverages his experience in mining, business, and cybersecurity to illuminate the past and future of Bitcoin. A veteran of the Bitcoin Civil War, and cybersecurity to illuminate the past and future of Bitcoin. A veteran of the Bitcoin Civil War, Kurt champions Satoshi's Kurt champions Satoshi's original vision for a true peer-to-peer cash system. original vision for a true peer-to-peer cash system. His clear explanations and His clear explanations and spirited commentary have made him a sought-after voice, spirited commentary have made him a sought-after voice, appearing on Fox Business and leading podcasts. appearing on Fox Business and leading podcasts.

You can find him hosting CoinGeek Weekly Livestream, You can find him hosting CoinGeek Weekly Livestream, where he fosters lively where he fosters lively discussions on Bitcoin's evolution. discussions on Bitcoin's evolution. Kurt's passion extends Kurt's passion extends beyond the blockchain. beyond the blockchain. He's a dedicated martial artist holding a black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu and coaching his local gyms competition team. He's a dedicated martial artist holding a black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu and coaching his local gyms competition team. When not immersed in Bitcoin or on the mats, When not immersed in Bitcoin or on the mats, Kurt finds balance through

Kurt finds balance through family and friends and his commitment to his church community. So thank you for joining us, Kurt. family and friends and his commitment to his church community. So thank you for joining us, Kurt. Good to be here, Aaron. Good to be here, Aaron. Looking forward to our talk. Yep, me too. How much time do you have, by the way? Looking forward to our talk. Yep, me too. How much time do you have, by the way? I've I've booked an hour but I could probably go along let me double check here I have booked an hour but I could probably go along let me double check here I have another thing at 2 30 eastern so hour and 20 ish okay great uh kurt another thing at 2 30

eastern so hour and 20 ish okay great uh kurt interviewed me on coin geek and I know I think we went for a couple of hours and so I know along yeah this this conversation could go a lot of different ways but interviewed me on coin geek and I know I think we went for a couple of hours and so I know along yeah this this conversation could go a lot of different ways but uh knowing that time time uh knowing that time time constraint we'll we'll try to work within that So just to give you a little bit more background, from my perspective, constraint we'll we'll try to work within that bit more background, from my perspective, So just to give you a little I've been involved in crypto since 2012.

I've been involved in crypto since 2012. And in fact, I exited the dollar. And in fact, I exited the dollar. I exited fiat currency in 2019 and went completely into crypto, gold and silver. When I talk about alternatives, I exited fiat currency in 2019 and went completely into crypto, gold and silver. When I talk about alternatives, and I want to make sure and I want to make sure because a lot of the people in this audience are not necessarily familiar with crypto at all. And there's a huge division between, well, because a lot of the people in this audience are not necessarily familiar with crypto at all. And there's a huge division between, well, should I even use crypto or gold or silver?

should I even use crypto or gold or silver? I am a I'm opposed to CBDCs and I support all alternatives. I am a I'm opposed to CBDCs and I support all alternatives. So I am not pushing any particular crypto and I don't have any particular bias even amongst crypto gold or silver. So I am not pushing any particular crypto and I don't have any particular bias even amongst crypto gold or silver. And I don't have any financial interest. And I don't have any financial interest. Nobody's paying me to promote any particular alternative. Nobody's paying me to promote any particular alternative. And also understand when I And also understand when I talk about crypto, talk about crypto,

I'm not making investment advice I'm not making investment advice or even looking at it from the perspective of how it might increase your portfolio. or even looking at it from the perspective of how it might increase your portfolio. I'm more interested in a substitute for cash, I'm more interested in a substitute for cash, a substitute that you can use as a medium of exchange so that we don't get stuck with government run central bank digital currency. a substitute that you can use as a medium of exchange so that we don't get stuck with government run central bank digital currency. So that just as a broad disclaimer, So that just as a broad disclaimer, as I go into all of these podcasts,

as I go into all of these podcasts, I want to let everybody know that perspective. know that perspective. I want to let everybody And just to give a little bit of understanding, And just to give a little bit of understanding, because some people don't because some people don't understand the difference between crypto and central bank digital currencies. And in particular, when I'm talking about crypto, understand the difference between crypto and central bank digital currencies. when I'm talking about crypto, And in particular, I'm talking about cryptocurrencies that are based on Satoshi Nakamoto's Bitcoin white paper. I'm talking about cryptocurrencies that are based on Satoshi Nakamoto's

Bitcoin white paper. There are 20,000 or so There are 20,000 or so different cryptocurrencies. different cryptocurrencies. 99% of them are not 99% of them are not candidates to be alternatives for cash. candidates to be alternatives for cash. So everything that I will be talking about is going to be something that's based on on that white paper, So everything that I will be talking about is going to be something that's based on on that white paper, and there's a lot of back and there's a lot of back and forth as to how that should be implemented, which we'll discuss further. and forth as to how that should be implemented, which we'll discuss further. But the difference between

But the difference between CBDCs and crypto, the Bitcoin flavor, are this. CBDCs are completely centralized. CBDCs and crypto, the Bitcoin flavor, are this. CBDCs are completely centralized. Bitcoin is decentralized. Bitcoin is decentralized. CBDCs are permissioned, CBDCs are permissioned, meaning there's centralized control over who can use them. Bitcoin is non-permissioned. Bitcoin is transparent. meaning there's centralized control over who can use them. Bitcoin is non-permissioned. Bitcoin is transparent. typical implementations of typical implementations of cbdc are it's not transparent uh bitcoin offers an immutable ledger where you can see all the transactions and you can't

cbdc are it's not transparent uh bitcoin offers an immutable ledger where you can see all the transactions and you can't go back and reverse them or change them there's a permanent record that is in in place and that's audited roughly every 10 minutes so whereas you don't get any go back and reverse them or change them there's a permanent record that is in in place and that's audited roughly every 10 minutes so whereas you don't get any of those benefits at least from the way cbdc's have been implemented so far so it's a pretty big difference and I point this out at the beginning because for people to new of those benefits at least from the way cbdc's have been implemented so far so

it's a pretty big difference and I point this because for people to new out at the beginning to this a lot of people to this a lot of people can't distinguish between CBDCs and crypto. It's all the same thing. And in fact, most of the time when I talk to people, can't distinguish between CBDCs and crypto. It's all the same thing. And in fact, most of the time when I talk to people, I traveled to 20 states or so last year, I traveled to 20 states or so last year, most people only know crypto as a speculative asset. most people only know crypto as a speculative asset.

The use case of crypto as money isn't even something that's on the forefront. So we have a long way to go, even though we're 15 years into this. The use case of crypto as money isn't even something that's on the forefront. So we have a long way to go, even though we're 15 years into this. So with that as the preamble, again, So with that as the preamble, again, thank you for joining Kurt. thank you for joining Kurt. And could you share a little And could you share a little bit about your background and journey into Bitcoin and the whole thing. So me and you have sort of similar paths. bit about your background and journey into Bitcoin and the whole thing.

So me and you have sort of similar paths. I mean, big libertarian circle stuff. I mean, big libertarian circle stuff. I used to write for various libertarian rags, always under a pen name. When I was younger, I used to write for various libertarian rags, always under a pen name. When I was younger, I didn't want people to I didn't want people to realize how young I was when I was writing. But I started doing it in high school, that kind of thing. realize how young I was when I was writing. But I started doing it in high school, that kind of thing. uh when the sort of occupy wall street and the tea party kind of backlash stuff all happened this is uh when the sort of occupy

wall street and the tea party kind of backlash stuff all happened this is kind of uh 2007 2008 sort kind of uh 2007 2008 sort of era um you know bank collapse that kind of thing um it felt like big vindication for what I had been talking of era um you know bank collapse that kind of thing um it felt like big vindication for what I had been talking about with like the need for libertarian policy and better monetary policy, basically sound money, monetary policy, about with like the need for libertarian policy and better monetary policy, basically sound money, monetary policy, the kind of stuff that the kind of stuff that you'd hear from Ron Paul or Peter Schiff and, you know,

you'd hear from Ron Paul or Peter Schiff and, you know, talking about how a bank could run and how a country could run, uh, you know, with, with a relationship with a healthy, healthy kind of bank. Um, talking about how a bank could run and how a country could run, uh, you know, with, with a relationship with a healthy, healthy kind of bank. Um, So when things started collapsing, So when things started collapsing, it was like, oh my gosh, this is it, but we don't have a replacement. There is no tool for fixing this. And so I was a gold bug. it was like, oh my gosh, this is it, but we don't have a replacement. There is no tool for fixing this. And so I was a gold bug. So for me, So for me,

it was always like precious it was always like precious metals and here's your options. And I always really like commodities. I'm a Chicagoan by... metals and here's your options. And I always really like commodities. I'm a Chicagoan by... And so I knew a lot of And so I knew a lot of commodities traders and guys talking about salt and pork bellies and all this other stuff going on in the world. commodities traders and guys talking about salt and pork bellies and all this other stuff going on in the world. And so I always really wanted to have a commodity backed currency as what we think of now as like real world asset tokenization that Bitcoin sort of allows us to have.

And so I always really wanted to have a commodity backed currency as what we think of now as like real world asset tokenization that Bitcoin sort of allows us to have. But we didn't have those tools back then. But we didn't have those tools back then. And so there wasn't a And so there wasn't a feasible way to do it. feasible way to do it. um I owned a printing company I was just an entrepreneur uh I worked in that industry for a long time in 2012 uh I had some um I owned a printing company I was just an entrepreneur uh I worked in that industry for a long time in 2012 uh I had some friends that were doing activism some kind of end

friends that were doing activism some kind of end the fed related rally in in chicago and a guy asked me if I would accept bitcoin in exchange for printing the fed related rally in in chicago and a guy asked me if I would accept bitcoin some posters for the uh for the event and so that was the first time anybody ever told me about bitcoin um you know, I said, fine, in exchange for printing some posters for the uh for the event and so that was the first time anybody ever told me about bitcoin um you know, I said, fine, it was like $150 job. So I kind of didn't care. Uh, just thought it was sort of novel. Uh, and then, I don't know, sometime in the next six months, it was like $150 job.

So I kind of didn't care. Uh, just thought it was sort of novel. Uh, and then, I don't know, sometime in the next six months, my brother got an offer to my brother got an offer to work for a gentleman named Adam Kokesh, uh, work for a gentleman named Adam Kokesh, who had a channel called Adam versus the man, uh, back in the day is one of, uh, who had a channel called Adam versus the man, uh, back in the day is one of, one of my favorite YouTube one of my favorite YouTube channels of all time. Uh, channels of all time. Uh, and Adam offered my brother a gig basically to, uh, and Adam offered my brother a gig basically to, uh, do something related to his

do something related to his video operations. video operations. But part of it was he either But part of it was he either needed to be paid in, needed to be paid in, I think it was Bitcoin or I think it was Bitcoin or Steam or Steam dollars at the time. Steam or Steam dollars at the time. So that was the second time I heard Bitcoin. That was pretty early 2013. I was like, okay, So that was the second time That was pretty early 2013. I heard Bitcoin. I was like, okay, I guess this is an emerging thing amongst people that I like. And so... I guess this is an emerging thing amongst people that I like. And so... that's when I read the white paper and got really into it.

that's when I read the white paper and got really into it. I started mining by the end of the year and lost my ass, frankly, I started mining by the end of the year and lost my ass, frankly, mining the first year mining the first year because I bought ASICs basically at the top of their market. They took like, I don't even know, it felt like a year for them to deliver. because I bought ASICs basically at the top of their market. They took like, I don't even know, it felt like a year for them to deliver. By the time I received them, By the time I received them, they were too inefficient

they were too inefficient to make money and whatever else. But I got the bug at that point. I opened my Coinbase account, I think in late 2013, to make money and whatever else. But I got the bug at that point. I opened my Coinbase account, I think in late 2013, started buying Bitcoin and You know, kind of the rest is history. started buying Bitcoin and You know, kind of the rest is history. I did a little foray into I did a little foray into altcoins and stuff when the Bitcoin Civil War became, you know, like, hey, altcoins and stuff when the Bitcoin Civil War became, you know, like, Bitcoin's not going to scale and it's been taken over by a bunch of frigging lizards.

Bitcoin's not going to scale and it's hey, been taken over by a bunch of frigging lizards. And so I got a little bit And so I got a little bit into ETH and Monero and some other stuff, like looking for some other, you know, similar technology. into ETH and Monero and some other stuff, like looking for some other, you know, similar technology. And then when Bitcoin Cash And then when Bitcoin Cash sort of emerged out of all of that, sort of emerged out of all of that, when it was clear that when it was clear that there was going to be a big blocker experiment in Bitcoin that included things like tokens and data and all this other stuff, I was like, oh, okay. there was going to be a big

blocker experiment in Bitcoin that included things like tokens and data and all this other stuff, I was like, oh, So I guess there is a So I guess there is a Bitcoin community that is still interested in doing all that cool stuff. okay. Bitcoin community that is still interested in doing all that cool stuff. And so I fell into that camp and been a big blocker ever since. And so I fell into that camp and been a big blocker ever since. I followed the BSV fork for technological reasons in 2018 as well. Basically, it's... I followed the BSV fork for technological reasons in 2018 as well. Basically, it's... whoever was saying, look, Bitcoin can, whoever was saying, look, Bitcoin can,

and whatever comes at the end of that sentence, and whatever comes at the end of that sentence, if that just sentence keeps on getting bigger and bigger, that's the direction I'm going to go. Bitcoin really is capable of all kinds of, if that just sentence keeps on getting bigger and bigger, that's the direction I'm going to go. Bitcoin really is capable of all kinds of, it's capable of anything it's capable of anything that money or the internet was ever capable of. that money or the internet was ever capable of. And the people who want to work on that are the people that I want to work with. And the people who want to work on that are the people that I want to work with.

And so I'm in the BSV camp for better or for worse at this point. You know, sometimes it feels like a lot of worse, but the technology itself, And so I'm in the BSV camp for better or for worse at this point. sometimes it feels like a lot of worse, You know, but the technology itself, It's the tool. It's the tool. It's the hammer that actually builds the house. It's the hammer that actually builds the house. And so if I can be the guy And so if I can be the guy wielding the hammer, wielding the hammer, I can sort of help how the I can sort of help how the house looks at the end of it, at least I hope. Well, that makes sense. And that's a very similar path for me. house looks at the end of it,

at least I hope. And that's a very similar path for me. Well, that makes sense. I went from BTC using it. I went from BTC using it. I mean, I actually used it for political I actually used it for political campaigns. I remember in 2017, I mean, campaigns. I remember in 2017, you could use it at Expedia and a bunch of stores would actually take it directly. you could use it at Expedia and a bunch of stores would actually take it directly. You didn't have to go You didn't have to go through any intermediaries. And then all of a sudden in December, of 2017, through any intermediaries. And then all of a sudden in December, of 2017,

it was clogged and the transaction fees jumped to like 50 bucks or more in some, some instances, it was clogged and the transaction fees jumped to like 50 bucks or more in some, some instances, and it was taking days to process transactions. And so everybody, um, while the price was going up, and it was taking days to process transactions. And so everybody, um, while the price was going up, people realized that you couldn't actually use it for its intended purpose. And, and so when I talk to people, again, most of the people that I'm talking to, people realized that you couldn't actually use it for its intended purpose. And, and so when I talk to people, again,

most of the people that I'm talking to, and a lot of these are really smart people. And some of these are, are, are they're sound money people, but, but, and a lot of these are really smart people. And some of these are, are, are they're sound money people, but, but, crypto is just off their crypto is just off their radar or it's not that it's off their radar. I think it's, radar or it's not that it's off their radar. I think it's, it's tainted to a degree where they see in the mainstream media, you know, Sam Bankman freed or whatever. There's too much noise. You know, you get, it's tainted to a degree where they see in the mainstream media, you know, Sam Bankman freed or whatever.

There's too much noise. you get past the first dozen blockchains that even exist and you're already like, okay, this is just a clown show. It's, it's a bunch of, it's a bunch of nonsense. you get past the first You know, you get, dozen blockchains that even exist and you're already like, okay, this is just a clown show. It's, it's a bunch of, it's a bunch of nonsense. So, and I think that's by design personally. I think it's by design too. And that leads me to my next actual topic, which is I want to talk about the, So, and I think that's by design personally. And that leads me to my next actual topic, I think it's by design too. which is I want to talk about the,

the original civil war. Like what, what happened in 2017? And because, because you were there as well. And I've, and I jumped into BSV. the original civil war. Like what, what happened in 2017? And because, because you were there as well. And I've, and I jumped into BSV. I followed the fork where I followed all this stuff, I followed the fork where I followed all this stuff, but I wrote an article about this that was published in zero hedge about some interesting developments that I found very disturbing and, but I wrote an article about this that was published in zero hedge about some interesting developments that I found very disturbing and,

One of the developments is that there have been three major CBDC pilot programs in the United States, One of the developments is that there have been three major CBDC pilot programs in the United States, and the MIT Multimedia Lab has been involved in all of them. and the MIT Multimedia Lab has been involved in all of them. And the guy that was the chair of that organization received funding from Jeffrey Epstein. And the guy that was the chair of that organization received funding from Jeffrey Epstein. And in fact, through Jeffrey Epstein, And in fact, through Jeffrey Epstein, a lot of other people, including Bill Gates. a lot of other people, including Bill Gates. And this was after Epstein

And this was after Epstein had already been found. Everybody knew Epstein's reputation. had already been found. Everybody knew Epstein's reputation. And I found that And I found that there was an article where Epstein was actually interviewed and he was talking about Bitcoin. And it was from 2017. there was an article where Epstein was actually talking about Bitcoin. interviewed and he was And it was from 2017. And he said that, well, And he said that, well, he doesn't see it as a currency. He sees it as digital gold. he doesn't see it as a currency. He sees it as digital gold. And I don't know when that narrative actually started, but I was actually floored to see, And I don't know when that

narrative actually started, but I was actually floored to see, because I only stumbled upon that article recently, because I only stumbled upon that article recently, that Epstein was referring that Epstein was referring to it as a digital gold. And why this is important is that MIT... to it as a digital gold. And why this is important is that MIT... media lab not only funded media lab not only funded the cbdc projects but that same chairman of the mit multimedia lab funded the cbdc projects but that same chairman of the mit multimedia lab funded segwit and funded some of the developers involved in making the changes to bitcoin what is now btc and segwit and funded some of

the developers involved in making the changes to bitcoin what is now btc and so what what have what have so what what have what have you seen what was your experience and what's your kind of knowledge of that whole thing. you seen what was your experience and what's your kind of knowledge of that whole So it goes a little further back. thing. So it goes a little further back. It's kind of funny to see how far back it actually goes, It's kind of funny to see how far back it actually goes, because you could say that because you could say that the first problem was this, the first problem was this,

and then you can go back another six months and say, oh, no, maybe the first problem was that. But you really... and then you can go back another six months and say, oh, no, maybe the first problem was that. But you really... conspiratorial about the real early days. You can get really conspiratorial about the real early days. Unfortunately, You can get really Unfortunately, everybody was using aliases everybody was using aliases and you kind of can't know who was who in the early Satoshi days. who was who in the early Satoshi days. and you kind of can't know But that kind of digital But that kind of digital gold conversation actually was pretty immediate. gold conversation actually

was pretty immediate. Satoshi Nakamoto was arguing with guys like James Donald and some of the other gentlemen on the cryptography mailing list and things even about, no, Satoshi Nakamoto was arguing with guys like James Donald and some of the other gentlemen on the cryptography mailing list and things even about, no, here's why it's cash and here's why it scales and here's why you don't need to run a node and all this other, you know, the technobabble stuff. but I think it really caught on. here's why it's cash and here's why it scales and here's why you don't need to run a node and all this other, you know, the technobabble stuff. but I think it really caught on.

If you look at the first real run-up, If you look at the first real run-up, so 2013 and 14, a bunch of key things happened. In 2013, so 2013 and 14, a bunch of key things happened. it was the first full year that Satoshi was all the way gone out of the project. In 2013, it was the first full year that Satoshi was all the way gone out of the project. He had largely disappeared by the end of 2010, but he would pop in occasionally. He had largely disappeared by the end of 2010, but he would pop in occasionally. He was still kind of in private communication with a few people in 2011 and 12, but then 13, he just was all the way gone, had moved on with his life seemingly, He was still kind of in

private communication with a few people in 2011 and 12, but then 13, he just was all the way gone, had moved on with his life seemingly, and basically the sophomore class And, um, And, um, and basically the sophomore class had kind of taken over. And if you look at the sophomore class, had kind of taken over. And if you look at the sophomore class, it was guys like Gregory it was guys like Gregory Maxwell and Peter Todd and some of these guys who, you know, Maxwell and Peter Todd and some of these guys who, you know, today you might think of as legendary Bitcoin core developers, today you might think of as legendary Bitcoin core developers,

but these guys were hard line advocates for, um, sort of dark web money. but these guys were hard line advocates for, um, sort of dark web money. They were encouraging to They were encouraging to like the Silk Road business model, which Satoshi was explicitly against. And, you know, like the Silk Road business model, which Satoshi was explicitly against. And, you know, and if you're going to be using money for crime, it needs to be more like a digital gold. So it sort of, moved away from being like, hey, and if you're going to be using money for crime, it needs to be more like a digital gold. So it sort of, moved away from being like, hey,

here's this hyper-liquid, hyper-useful cash system. And it's like, no, no, no, no. here's this hyper-liquid, hyper-useful cash system. And it's like, no, no, no, no. if we kept it as sort of a crime niche? Wouldn't it be more valuable Wouldn't it be more valuable if we kept it as sort of a crime niche? And obviously that's helpful if you're the criminal. And obviously that's helpful if you're the criminal. And I really think that's what Jeffrey Epstein saw in it too. I mean, And I really think that's what Jeffrey Epstein saw in it too. I mean, imagine the banking problems that imagine the banking problems that guy would have had. So... So... guy would have had. Having a tool that would

Having a tool that would allow him to move value across borders easily, that's a big thing. allow him to move value across borders easily, that's a big thing. But you also see the But you also see the founding of some of the early venture capital groups that got involved in Bitcoin too. founding of some of the early venture capital groups that got involved in Bitcoin too. And I think the first one, And I think the first one, if you look at the earliest history, you see MasterCard Ventures, if you look at the earliest history, you see MasterCard Ventures, which is kind of the investment wing of MasterCard, the credit card payment company. which is kind of the investment wing of MasterCard,

the credit card payment company. And they they created a basically a module to look into Bitcoin. And and this isn't public. And they they created a basically a module to look into Bitcoin. And and this isn't public. But what I think they discovered is, oh, shoot, But what I think they discovered is, oh, shoot, this is a very powerful payments this is a very powerful payments technology that undermines our control of the payments economy in the Western Hemisphere. And therefore, technology that undermines our control of the payments economy in the Western Hemisphere. And therefore, it's a competitor and much

it's a competitor and much the same way that, you know, you hear drug companies, you know, the same way that, you know, you hear drug companies, you know, if somebody invents a ten dollar cure for breast cancer, like they're going to try to buy it. if somebody invents a ten dollar cure for breast cancer, like they're going to try to buy it. OK, here's $50 million. OK, here's $50 million. We're patting the shit out We're patting the shit out of it and we'll put it on the shelf and we'll continue selling what we currently sell, which is a lot more profitable than that. of it and we'll put it on the shelf and we'll continue selling what we currently sell,

which is a lot more profitable than that. And I think MasterCard And I think MasterCard basically did the same thing. basically did the same thing. So over the course of about a year and a half, they created a massive incubator. So over the course of about a year and a half, they created a massive incubator. They brought in a bunch of other old world money, They brought in a bunch of other old world money, including like New York including like New York Life Insurance Company, CME Ventures, which is the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, Life Insurance Company, CME Ventures, which is the Chicago Mercantile Exchange,

and a bunch of other like 100 plus year old finance companies to create a blockchain incubator. and a bunch of other like 100 plus year old finance companies to create a blockchain incubator. This was called Digital Currency Group. This was called Digital Currency Group. Digital Currency Group invested in basically every company that existed in the blockchain space at the time. Digital Currency Group invested in basically every company that existed in the blockchain space at the time. So this is your So this is your uh early like angel round level like blockstream lightning labs coinbase kraken all these companies uh early like angel round level like blockstream lightning labs coinbase

kraken all these companies that today are you know multi-billion dollar valued companies and sort of the vanguard of the of the blockchain economy these that today are you know multi-billion dollar valued companies and sort of the vanguard of the of the blockchain economy these were uh mostly plucky were uh mostly plucky little startups run by guys in their 20s who were you know just basically thought bitcoin was bitcoin was little startups run by guys in their 20s who were you know just basically thought bitcoin was bitcoin was

cool uh and then you get these digital currency groups show up and you know What kind of 20-year-old says no to a $50 million check to kind of join this group of other disruptive companies? cool uh and then you get these digital currency groups show up and you know What kind of 20-year-old says no to a $50 million check to kind of join this group of other disruptive companies? And who knows what strings are attached to that? Well, And who knows what strings are attached to that? Well, all of a sudden this shift from all of a sudden this shift from Bitcoin is a really useful means of exchange or tokenization or some of these other stuff to... Bitcoin is a really useful means of exchange or

tokenization or some of these other stuff to... Bitcoin's digital gold and Bitcoin's digital gold and it's this trading pair asset. it's this trading pair asset. So just trade everything against BTC and accumulate more BTC because BTC is valuable and you want to accumulate it. So just trade everything against BTC and accumulate more BTC because BTC is valuable and you want to accumulate it. And so here's just this massive pile of altcoins you can trade against and we'll turn it into a casino economy and it's great. And so here's just this massive pile of altcoins you can trade against and we'll turn it into a casino economy and it's great. And so normal people get rewarded if they trade well,

And so normal people get rewarded if they trade well, which is addictive for all the reasons casinos are addictive. And then... which is addictive for all the reasons casinos are addictive. And then... it's no longer a threat to all the companies that invested in creating this incubator. And so I think there was a, you know, it's no longer a threat to all the companies that invested in creating this incubator. And so I think there was a, you know, 2013 to 2017 was this era where they set up all these dominoes to basically like, look, 2013 to 2017 was this era where they set up all these dominoes to basically like, look, we need to make people

we need to make people think it will make them money. think it will make them money. It needs to make them enough It needs to make them enough money where to where they shut up about what it, what else it could even do. And then like, money where to where they shut up about what it, what else it could even do. And then like, the time the world knows what bitcoin is they will know what it is in a way that is inaccurate and so we don't lose our monopoly on payments and banking and the time the world knows what bitcoin is they will know what it is in a way that is inaccurate and so we don't lose our monopoly on payments and banking and

all this other stuff and so uh by 2017 it had come to a fever pitch uh all the people that wouldn't be bought uh had been kicked all this other stuff and so uh by 2017 it had come to a fever pitch uh all the people that wouldn't be bought uh had been kicked out of the conversation and all the people that were working for the right venture capital companies were now in uh seats of power controlling out of the conversation and all the people that were working for the right venture capital companies were now in uh seats of power controlling uh bitcoin via the software uh bitcoin via the software repo and and node operation stuff and mining pools uh and what what we've come to

repo and and node operation stuff and mining pools uh and what what we've come to realize is a very powerful uh tool really it's the exchanges and choosing tickers and and all that kind of stuff because people already don't know realize is a very powerful uh tool really it's the exchanges and choosing tickers and and all that kind of stuff because people already don't know what bitcoin is so when what bitcoin is so when somebody says hey open up a coinbase account and coinbase says this is bitcoin just buy it that's what you do OK, cool. somebody says hey open up a coinbase account and coinbase says this is bitcoin just buy it that's what you do OK, cool. I just bought it.

I've joined some revolution. I just bought it. I've joined some revolution. Maybe I get rich. And then when they do get rich, Maybe I get rich. And then when they do get rich, now they're a foot soldier for whatever that sort of controlled opposition is. And yeah. And then the rest of us, now they're a foot soldier for whatever that sort of controlled opposition is. And yeah. And then the rest of us, what I call the real Bitcoiners left in 2017. what I call the real Bitcoiners left in 2017. And we've been working on And we've been working on implementing the real Bitcoin ever since, frankly. Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's a I mean, implementing the real Bitcoin ever since, frankly.

Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's a I mean, that's a fascinating history that I want to dig into a little bit more because I mean, that's a fascinating history that I want to dig into a little bit more because I mean, I'm particularly interested I'm particularly interested in this idea of intentionally sabotaging it while bringing in CBDC at the same time and the fact that there's an intersection of the same players. in this idea of intentionally sabotaging it while bringing in CBDC at the same time and the fact intersection of the same players. that there's an And one of the things that

And one of the things that always struck me when I read the Bitcoin white paper and then read some of Satoshi's comments was the always struck me when I read the Bitcoin white paper and then read some of Satoshi's comments was the idea that not only is this idea that not only is this a currency that's separated from state and possibly an alternative to the complete failure of fiat currency, a currency that's separated from state and possibly an alternative to the complete failure of fiat currency, But it enables a whole new But it enables a whole new type of business model and way to even use cash through micropayments. And in my experiences, type of business model and way to even use cash

through micropayments. And in my experiences, my backgrounds as a serial entrepreneur, my backgrounds as a serial entrepreneur, my first company was an e-commerce company that started in 1995. And we dealt with 150 distributors. And so we basically had a lot of. my first company was an e-commerce company that started in 1995. And we dealt with 150 distributors. And so we basically had a lot of. time and money being spent time and money being spent just handling and dividing payments and paying these things out over time. You pay this vendor 60 days, just handling and dividing payments and paying these things out over time. You pay this vendor 60 days, you have to pay this vendor

you have to pay this vendor and you have a credit card transaction that comes in, you have to pay 30 cents plus 2.9%. and you have a credit card transaction that comes in, you have to pay 30 cents plus 2.9%. And so by the time, you know, And so by the time, you know, there's just a lot of there's just a lot of friction with respect to that business. So if I had a micropayment platform, that would have been great. friction with respect to that business. So if I had a micropayment platform, that would have been great. My second company was a My second company was a healthcare company where we used financial incentives to reward people for improving their health. And actually, well,

healthcare company where we used financial incentives to reward people for improving their health. And actually, well, Obamacare killed it because it basically said you can't reward people for results. But even beyond Obamacare, Obamacare killed it because it basically said you can't reward people for results. But even beyond Obamacare, we were using debit cards and Dodd-Frank actually killed that. we were using debit cards and Dodd-Frank actually killed that. So our debit card vendor was So our debit card vendor was put out of business. put out of business.

We then used a vendor for checks that would handle like a check writing service for multiple clients. And so they would pool money into one. We then used a vendor for checks that would handle like a check writing service for multiple clients. And so they would pool money into one. one bank account and then one bank account and then issue the checks more cost effectively. issue the checks more cost effectively. And the attorney general came in and basically said, well, And the attorney general came in and basically said, well, one of your clients might one of your clients might be doing offshore gaming, be doing offshore gaming, so we're going to seize all

so we're going to seize all of your clients funds, of your clients funds, which created a whole bunch which created a whole bunch of issues for us. So if I had had micropayments, that would have been a game changer. of issues for us. So if I had had micropayments, that would have been a game changer. And that's just from so every business that I've been involved in would have been materially different from this. And that's just from so every business that I've been involved in would have been materially different from this. But then there's a whole new set of businesses with like I mean, But then there's a whole new set of businesses with like

it's a threat to Silicon Valley itself because most of these new technology I mean, it's a threat to Silicon Valley itself because most of these new technology platforms are based on advertising models where you are the data, you are their revenue model, platforms are based on advertising models where you are the data, you are their revenue model, and it's your information that they're selling, and that's what they're monetizing. And so a really scalable, and it's your information and that's what they're monetizing. that they're selling, And so a really scalable, decentralized currency like

decentralized currency like this is a threat to Silicon Valley in general, is it not? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. this is a threat to Silicon Valley in general, is it not? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. So, in fact, So, in fact, I would argue this is an even I would argue this is an even bigger deal. bigger deal. So I got into Bitcoin basically on the same premise. We need to undermine the Fed's monopoly, maybe not necessarily get rid of it, So I got into Bitcoin basically on the same premise. We need to undermine the Fed's monopoly, maybe not necessarily get rid of it,

but at least insert some competition and make them have to deal with market forces and maybe their behavior gets better. But. after seeing the way that, you know, but at least insert some competition and make them have to deal with market forces and maybe their behavior gets better. But. after seeing the way that, you know, the last 20 years of Internet culture has evolved, the last 20 years of Internet culture has evolved, the people with the most the people with the most money and power really aren't even the government anymore. I mean, money and power really aren't even the government anymore. the government is using Amazon to I mean,

the government is using Amazon to run all of their critical infrastructure and they're buying data from Twitter run all of their critical infrastructure and they're buying data from Twitter and Facebook in order to monitor us properly. So the NSA, you know, used to be the big baddie. But frankly, and Facebook in order to monitor us properly. So the NSA, you know, used to be the big baddie. But frankly, Mark Zuckerberg has way more Mark Zuckerberg has way more power than than even the NSA does now. Obviously, power than than even the NSA does now. Obviously, there's some checks and balances in theory where there would need to be a court order or you could stop someone like Mark.

there's some checks and balances in theory where there would need to be a court order or you could stop someone like Mark. But when Silicon Valley really has kind of changed the way that all of this works, But when Silicon Valley really has kind of changed the way that all of this works, then you sort of have a then you sort of have a technocracy that is a little bit difficult to understand unless you work in tech. technocracy that is a little bit difficult to understand unless you work in tech. But I think a lot of people But I think a lot of people sort of intrinsically understand that um you know if you start talking about soccer shoes or joining a beer club or

sort of intrinsically understand that um you know if you start talking about soccer shoes or joining a beer club or or like hey I want to maybe I want to take a trip to japan all of a sudden you start getting advertised things that are relevant to the stuff you were talking about and so there's some or like hey I want to maybe I want to take a trip to japan all of a sudden you start getting advertised things that are relevant to the stuff you were talking about and so there's some ad module somewhere that is listening to you and calculating what your browsing history really means in order to take your ad module somewhere that is listening to you and calculating what your

browsing history really means in order to take your data and advertise to you data and advertise to you more effectively and so You really are. more effectively and so You really are. You are just the aggregate value of your data to the real rulers of the real economy today. And what Bitcoin does at scale, You are just the aggregate value of your data to the real rulers of the real economy today. And what Bitcoin does at scale, the real Bitcoin, the real Bitcoin, like the system that is Bitcoin allows you to control your data. like the system that is Bitcoin allows you to control your data. It allows you to sell it or lease it or rent it to whoever wants to buy it. It allows you to sell it or

lease it or rent it to whoever wants to buy it. But you get compensated for your data and they would have to make you cryptographically aware of how your data is being used. But you get compensated for your data and they would have to make you cryptographically aware of how your data is being used. So let's say instead of logging into Twitter with your Google email address, So let's say instead of logging into Twitter with your Google email address, and then logging into all kinds of other sites with your Google or your Twitter or your Facebook account, and then logging into all kinds of other sites with your Google or your Twitter or your Facebook account,

where now they're kind of aggregating all your information, where now they're kind of aggregating all your information, what if you logged in with what if you logged in with your Bitcoin keys, your Bitcoin keys, which is something that is totally feasible to do. It's the exact same kind of technology, which is something that is totally feasible to do. It's the exact same kind of technology, where you have a basic where you have a basic identity associated to your keys and you can log in and you can share whatever information you choose to share, identity associated to your keys and you can log in and you can share whatever information you choose to share, micropayments for it because Tom,

but you can demand but you can demand micropayments for it because Tom, Dick and Jane, Dick and Jane, their info is not really their info is not really worth dollars per hour to anybody. worth dollars per hour to anybody. It's probably worth a penny or less per hour. But if you had a way to pay that, It's probably worth a penny or less per hour. But if you had a way to pay that, you could pay that in a way that makes more sense. Now, you could pay that in a way that makes more sense. Now, obviously your internet influencers and stuff, Maybe someone like you, Aaron, because you've run for president, obviously your internet influencers and stuff, Maybe someone like you, Aaron,

because you've run for president, that your time is worth a little bit more to the overlords. But ultimately, what it is, that your time is worth a little bit more to the overlords. But ultimately, what it is, is we need to figure out a way first to get people to monetize their own data instead of it going through Mark Zuckerberg or Jack Dorsey's gatekeeping first, is we need to figure out a way first to get people to monetize their own data instead of it going through Mark Zuckerberg or Jack Dorsey's gatekeeping first, but then there's also this but then there's also this concept of the ownership economy of your own data. So your data is an asset. So what if you could use your data,

concept of the ownership economy of your own data. So your data is an asset. So what if you could use your data, like your aggregate data as collateral for a loan for a car or a loan to start a business or something like that? like your aggregate data as collateral for a loan for a car or a loan to start a business or something like that? Like you start to get this ownership economy about your own data because data is money in every regard today. Like you start to get this ownership economy about your own data because data is money in every regard today. And you could use it to be And you could use it to be the background asset, the background asset, instead of having your

instead of having your credit score and your kind of old world Fiat identity for the Western hemisphere, it turns into, credit score and your kind of old world Fiat identity for the Western hemisphere, it turns into, what is your real value to the real world in an open market? And so, yeah, controlling your social interactions, what is your real value to the real world in an open market? And so, yeah, controlling your social interactions, controlling your data, making it that, I think another simple one would be, you go to a bar, controlling your data, making it that, I think another simple one would be, you go to a bar, and you're 23 years old and

and you're 23 years old and you hand your driver's license over to the bartender, he now knows he can serve you a drink, you hand your driver's license over to the bartender, he now knows he can serve you a drink, but he also probably knows where you live and other stuff that he doesn't need to know. And so if he's some kind of creep, but he also probably knows where you live and other stuff that he doesn't need to know. And so if he's some kind of creep, you've just doxed yourself to some kind of creep in order to get a drink. Now, you've just doxed yourself to some kind of creep in order to get a drink. Now,

what Bitcoin also allows you to do is simply give a yes-no using a QR code as to whether you are... what Bitcoin also allows you to do is simply give a yes-no using a QR code as to whether you are... allowed to be served a drink in that jurisdiction, period. allowed to be served a drink in that jurisdiction, period. They don't even need to know your name or any other identifying information. They don't even need to know your name or any other identifying information. You simply show an app with You simply show an app with your phone that is connected to Bitcoin. your phone that is connected to Bitcoin. It's connected to some kind It's connected to some kind of identity apparatus that says,

of identity apparatus that says, Kirk can have a beverage here because that's the only amount of information that that bartender needs to know about you. Kirk can have a beverage here because that's the only amount of information that that bartender needs to know about you. And there's all kinds of And there's all kinds of other situations that have a similar sort of, you know, other situations that have a similar sort of, you know, a situation where you don't need to be oversharing. And if you can stop from oversharing, a situation where you don't need to be oversharing. And if you can stop from oversharing,

that would be good for you because how many data breaches do we have in a year where all of a sudden, I mean, that would be good for you because how many data breaches do we have in a year where all of a sudden, I mean, I get like four or five a I get like four or five a year in my mailbox, like, Hey, you've you're, year in my mailbox, like, Hey, you've you're, you're subject to get a $12 reward because your data was used by some company you didn't know existed that sold it inappropriately or got it hacked or whatever. you're subject to get a $12 reward because your data was used by some company you didn't know existed that sold it inappropriately or got it hacked or whatever.

And here's your settlement. And it's like, Oh, good grief. You know what else is out there now? And, you know, And here's your settlement. And it's like, Oh, good grief. You know what else is out there now? And, you know, Bitcoin solves all of those Bitcoin solves all of those problems as well as all kinds of other like cybersecurity related stuff like, you know, problems as well as all kinds of other like cybersecurity related stuff like, you know, file logging and all these other things that that protect data truly. file logging and all these other things that that protect data truly. And it's the kind of world

And it's the kind of world that we have to move toward or else we are going to be, you know, the U.S. that we have to move toward or else we are going to be, you know, the U.S. government and the Federal government and the Federal Reserve Bank are going to struggle to maintain their control in 50 years because Silicon Valley overlords are going to have too much power. Reserve Bank are going to struggle to maintain their control in 50 years because Silicon Valley overlords are going to have too much power. They're going to be the next big baddie to defeat. They're going to be the next big baddie to defeat. And we have the tools and we

And we have the tools and we need to get them into the places that matter. Yeah, well, I mean, I actually think to that point, need to get them into the places that matter. I actually think to that point, Yeah, well, I mean, and I put this in my book, and I put this in my book, and I know people like and I know people like Craig has even said, these kinds of things are conspiratorial, Craig has even said, these kinds of things are conspiratorial, like this idea of moving towards a one world government. And it is it is a conspiracy, but it is not a theory. It's actually well documented, like this idea of moving towards a one world government. And it is it is a conspiracy,

but it is not a theory. It's actually well documented, the people stated in their own words. the people stated in their own words. And in fact, And in fact, there are groups that have there are groups that have been working on this for the last five decades. And in fact, in my view, been working on this for the last five decades. And in fact, in my view, the end goal of this the end goal of this is one global CBDC that's actually probably backed by energy. is one global CBDC that's actually probably backed by energy. So the entire technocracy movement, So the entire technocracy movement, even going back to the 1930s, even going back to the 1930s, The concept behind it was to

The concept behind it was to replace a price-based system with an energy-based system. replace a price-based system with an energy-based system. And so this is a system And so this is a system where they literally want to control every aspect of your life from the top down, every decision that you make. where they literally want to control every aspect of your life from the top down, every decision that you make. And they can control that because if they can control – they have to be able to manage all of the energy produced and energy consumed. And they can control that because if they can control – they have to be able to manage all of the energy produced and energy consumed.

So they basically – shut off our free will shut off markets and shut off our ability to explore the unknown and they and in the most charitable case So they basically – shut off our free will shut off markets and shut off our ability to explore the unknown and they and in the most charitable case they're doing it because they're doing it because they think that they're smarter than everyone else and we're going to die because we're going to run out of resources unless we let these brilliant they think that they're smarter than everyone else and we're going to die because we're going to run out of resources unless we let these brilliant scientists and engineers

scientists and engineers and so but what this is this this movement towards globalization that groups like the trilateral commission have been working on has been going and so but what this is this this movement towards globalization that groups like the trilateral working on has been going commission have been on for for five decades and it's been all about eroding national sovereignty and in favor of large corporate interests. on for for five decades and it's been all about eroding national sovereignty and in favor of large corporate interests. And to your point, And to your point,

it is these large corporations out of Silicon Valley in particular that have dominated in recent years and have more and more control, more and more access to information. it is these large corporations out of Silicon Valley in particular that have dominated in recent years and have more and more control, more and more access to information. It's kind of like, It's kind of like, I know there's a Supreme Court case about the overreach, Biden versus Missouri, I know there's a Supreme Court case about the overreach, Biden versus Missouri, the overreach regarding COVID information and even election information. the overreach regarding COVID information and even election information.

And now we know the FBI had direct access in, and in fact, there were, Jira's and basically software systems, And now we know the FBI had direct access in, and in fact, there were, Jira's and basically software systems, it wasn't just algorithmic. it wasn't just algorithmic. There were actually teams of people coordinating amongst multiple Silicon Valley companies to take down information and content the minute it was put up. There were actually teams of people coordinating amongst multiple Silicon Valley companies to take down information and content the minute it was put up. And again, not even inaccurate information. And again, not even inaccurate information.

They even created a new category called misinformation, They even created a new category called misinformation, which is basically something that while it may be true, but it's harmful that the truth gets out. I mean, it's something right out of Orwell. which is basically something that while it may be true, but it's harmful that the truth gets out. it's something right out of Orwell. I mean, So we were seeing that and it's going at a really fast pace. So we were seeing that and it's going at a really fast pace. And so the reason I'm doing And so the reason I'm doing everything that I'm doing right now is that I've watched what's what's happened. And I'm like, wow, everything that I'm doing

right now is that I've watched what's what's happened. And I'm like, wow, if we don't stop in particular CBD, if we don't stop in particular CBD, CBDCs in the way they're being implemented, CBDCs in the way they're being implemented, then we're going to lose the ability to even protest on any other issue. then we're going to lose the ability to even protest on any other issue. Because once your money can be controlled centrally, they can control your speech, they can control your behavior. Because once your money can be controlled centrally, they can control your speech, they can control your behavior. And so then you lose the ability to to protest. And so that's the issue.

And so then you lose the ability to to protest. And so that's the issue. And just to go back to this And just to go back to this whole kind of the civil war within Bitcoin, I mean, whole kind of the civil war within Bitcoin, I mean, what you laid out in terms of the potential of what you can do with the Bitcoin white paper as achieved at scale, I mean, what you laid out in terms of the potential of what you can do with the Bitcoin white paper as achieved at scale, I mean, in terms of micropayments, ownership of your own data, I mean, in terms of micropayments, ownership of your own data, I mean, it is the ultimate

it is the ultimate decentralization and it's empowering the individual. to the maximum case possible. decentralization and it's empowering the individual. to the maximum case possible. So you compare that potential to what it means to have digital gold. And part of me, So you compare that potential to what it means to have digital gold. And part of me, and I get into a lot of and I get into a lot of trouble for this because I'm not, again, I'm not firmly in it. I'm interested in the outcome. I'm interested in, trouble for this because I'm not, again, I'm not firmly in it. I'm interested in the outcome. I'm interested in, I'm interested in the truth, I'm interested in the truth,

but I'm ultimately interested in the truth in a way that actually preserves liberty and preserves free will. And there's gray everywhere. interested in the truth in but I'm ultimately a way that actually preserves liberty and preserves free will. And there's gray everywhere. There's very little pragmatism allowed in Bitcoin conversations. There's very little pragmatism. But I mean, There's very little pragmatism allowed in Bitcoin conversations. There's very little pragmatism. But I mean, I know some people that were involved very early on in Bitcoin, like Roger Ver. I know some people that were involved very early on in Bitcoin, like Roger Ver. And I actually learned about

And I actually learned about Bitcoin from the same person Roger Ver learned about Bitcoin from, Ian Freeman. And I was at his sentencing hearing. Bitcoin from the same person Roger Ver learned about Bitcoin from, Ian Freeman. And I was at his sentencing hearing. He's in federal prison for He's in federal prison for eight years for selling Bitcoin. And the story is awful. Yeah, it's an awful story. eight years for selling Bitcoin. And the story is awful. Yeah, it's an awful story. And and so, you know, so there are the people that will say, well, what you're saying is conspiratorial. People want CBDCs, you know, it's efficiency and everything else. And and so, you know,

so there are the people that will say, what you're saying is conspiratorial. well, People want CBDCs, you know, it's efficiency and everything else. And this stuff is going to work at scale. And this stuff is going to work at scale. And it's like this stuff is And it's like this stuff is already the crackdowns going on. In fact. Right now, already the crackdowns going on. In fact. Right now, there's a bill working its way there's a bill working its way to the Senate Banking Committee that Elizabeth Warren drafted that's essentially the equivalent of a crypto ban. I mean, to the Senate Banking Committee that Elizabeth Warren drafted that's essentially the equivalent I mean, of a crypto ban.

it's going to clamp down on anti-money laundering and KYC stuff, it's going to clamp down on anti-money laundering and KYC stuff, but to a level that's essentially going to be banning self-custody crypto wallets. And so this legislation has been drafted. but to a level that's essentially going to be banning self-custody crypto wallets. And so this legislation has been drafted. I spoke with Senator Ted Cruz, who put forward a bill. Ted Cruz, his opinion was... I spoke with Senator Ted Cruz, who put forward a bill. Ted Cruz, his opinion was... that he thinks the Federal that he thinks the Federal Reserve will act unilaterally without Congress. Reserve will act unilaterally without Congress.

So he tried to put in a bill to prevent Congress from acting unilaterally to implement a CBDC, and he got no traction. It was shut down. So he tried to put in a bill to prevent Congress from acting unilaterally to implement a CBDC, and he got no traction. It was shut down. My conversation with him, My conversation with him, and part of why I'm sharing some of this is I talk to a lot of people that have a kind of a mindset of governments and central banks are going to pick the and part of why I'm sharing some of this is I talk to a lot of people that have a kind of a mindset of governments and central banks are going to pick the

best technology and it's going to be a competitive marketplace, and it is all about the best tech, best technology and it's going to be a competitive marketplace, and it is all about the best tech, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the decision-making process, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the decision-making process, nor does it have anything nor does it have anything to do with the intent. to do with the intent. And my run for president was to elevate this issue, but in the process, I talked to Vivek Ramaswamy, And my run for president was to elevate this issue, but in the process, I talked to Vivek Ramaswamy, who read my book, who read my book,

and subsequently convinced and subsequently convinced Trump to come out anti-CBDC, which again, it's a political promise, Trump to come out anti-CBDC, which again, it's a political promise, But in talking to Congress But in talking to Congress and everything else, if they tried to implement a CBDC, and everything else, if they tried to implement a CBDC, which my concern is that they might before the 2024 election, which my concern is that they might before the 2024 election, there is no political will there is no political will or ability to stop it based on the current configuration of Congress and knowing that President or ability to stop it based on the current configuration of Congress

and knowing that President Biden's already signed an executive order authorizing the exploration of it. So people don't know. People are like, oh, this is way far off. No, Biden's already signed an executive order authorizing the exploration of it. So people don't know. People are like, oh, this is way far off. the president signed an executive order in 2022 authorizing exploring it while cracking down on all other digital assets, which they've been doing. the president signed an executive order No, in 2022 authorizing exploring it while cracking down on all other digital assets, which they've been doing.

And so we're in a real difficult situation. So that's on a little bit back off topic. I want to go back to, And so we're in a real difficult situation. So that's on a little bit back off topic. so what happened with then so what happened with then BTC to BCH and then BCH to BSV? I want to go back to, BTC to BCH and then BCH to BSV? Because I'm trying to let people know that origin story. Because I'm trying to let people know that origin story. The very simplest version is The very simplest version is that the BTC people said that you need to have a very hard and very low cap on total bandwidth across the network. that the BTC people said that you need to have a very hard and very low cap

on total bandwidth across the network. So Bitcoin has what's called a block time. So Bitcoin has what's called a block time. So that's every 10 minutes, So that's every 10 minutes, there is a reconciliation of all unconfirmed transactions on the network. there is a reconciliation transactions on the network. of all unconfirmed transaction at any time and So me and you can send a So me and you can send a transaction at any time and we should expect for it to be reconciled and written to the ledger permanently inside of about 10 minutes. we should expect for it to be reconciled and written to the ledger permanently inside of about 10 minutes.

So what they said is that we need to make sure that the amount of data that can be written every 10 minutes is one megabyte. So what they said is that we need to make sure that the amount of data that can be written every 10 minutes is one megabyte. And the reason for that is And the reason for that is because we need to have as many people as possible running a copy of the blockchain and doing that validation in a distributed fashion. many people as possible because we need to have as running a copy of the blockchain and doing that validation in a distributed fashion. So they are saying that every person, So they are saying that every person, even from the poorest

even from the poorest nations in the world, nations in the world, need to be able to run a copy of the Bitcoin ledger. And because of that, because of that major bandwidth limit, need to be able to run a copy of the Bitcoin ledger. because of that major bandwidth limit, And because of that, uh when there's too much traffic uh it just kind of stops after a certain point but as traffic eats its way uh when there's too much traffic uh it just kind of stops after a certain point but as traffic eats its way up it's kind of like having a a single road between like washington dc and new york city uh and so if you gotta go it's gonna be up it's kind of like having a a single road between

like washington dc and new york city uh and so if you gotta go it's gonna be jammed but if you really jammed but if you really really gotta go you gotta pay a big toll to get on the one road that allows you to do it uh in order to stop it from being an really gotta go you gotta pay a big toll to get on the one road that allows you to do it uh in order to stop it from being an overcrowded road at all times and so um overcrowded road at all times and so um It's basically just a sort of a false scarcity that's created arbitrarily by saying you can only have one megabyte of data every 10 minutes. It's basically just a sort of a false scarcity that's created arbitrarily by saying you can only have

one megabyte of data every 10 minutes. Now, Now, Bitcoin did not innately have a block Bitcoin did not innately have a block size limit when it was issued. In fact, size limit when it was issued. In fact, it had kind of a practical limit it had kind of a practical limit of about 32 megabytes per block when it was created. of about 32 megabytes per block when it was created. Satoshi Nakamoto was asked Satoshi Nakamoto was asked for his opinion on what it should look like. for his opinion on what it should look like. know in the near term and in

know in the near term and in the long term uh this is in the 2009 2010 era and he basically said look bitcoin needs to have millions of transactions or it will have none. the long term uh this is in the 2009 2010 era and he basically said look bitcoin needs to have millions of transactions or it will have none. And so he was talking about Visa size scale. He specifically said, And so he was talking about Visa size scale. He specifically said, Bitcoin can scale faster than Visa right now using today's techn Bitcoin can scale faster than Visa right now using today's technology and these kinds of things. He also explicitly explained that when the block size limit was added,

that it was simply because the whole network was really immature and he needed it as a way to mitigate DOS, which is uh, people maliciously sending lots of transactions in order to knock the network over. And so he put a choke point in and specifically explained like literally with code, here's how you grow this so that it doesn't become jammed. So when the network becomes more mature and more people are using it, it's starting to show, um, you know, show its age and show the problems of that limitation, make this very simple change. It's what we would call a hard fork today. And you basically hard fork the network in order to expand its bandwidth for people to use. So by 2017,

your Bitcoin Cash people were like, hey, this is very, very clear and very simple. Satoshi gave us his reasoning and he gave us a little bit of code to use for the implementation. And since the network is at its wit's end and the fees are $50 per transaction, which is way more than any of us ever thought we would get to, we should just let's just make it a eight megabyte block size limit or actually started with two. The first compromise was to make it a two megabyte block size limit. Uh, they came to a soft agreement. They call it the first, the Hong Kong agreement, then the New York agreement. And then there was a backstab about six weeks before this two megabyte upgrade was supposed to

happen to the network. Uh, your small blockers came out and they had this whole campaign, no two X and all of this other stuff. Uh, they're all wearing hats and threatening everybody. Like this is an attack on Bitcoin to try to raise the block size limit to two megabytes. The network's going to fall apart. Um, uh, what I think occurred in the Bizarre. Actually, background is that the guy implementation that allowed that created the it was an independent. He wasn't a block streamer. It was a guy named Jeff Garzik. And there was a lot of money being raised under the auspices that Blockstream and its group of people were in control of bitcoin this is something that I've seen

on pitch decks that hey yeah you should fund us because we're in control of the protocol we're gonna we're gonna make this work for you uh and then when some new guy is gonna be the guy that issues the fundamental protocol that bitcoin is on all of a sudden they lose that control so I think that's why it was sort of an all of a sudden no no 2x um so then the bitcoin cash people that me frankly me and my friends excuse me we had to um kind of come up with a solution really quickly. Bitmain, Jihan Wu's company, the biggest manufacturer of mining ASICs, and a couple others, Roger Ver was one of them. They started funding the creation of a client that would upgrade the network

and they were going to have essentially a hash war. So Bitcoin Cash was going to have an eight megabyte block size limit and compete for hash power to see who's the real Bitcoin. That happened on August 1st, 2017. A lot of really weird stuff happened. Bitcoin Cash looked like it was going to explode up in value. I think it did actually crisscross In fact, and take over from Bitcoin Core briefly. But then all the exchanges went down. Coinbase was down for hours. And then all of a sudden when everything turned back on, BTC was way up in value and Bitcoin Cash was down quite a bit. And everyone's like, oh, okay, that's it. This is the real Bitcoin based on the price. So it's this notion that the

highest price will determine the most hash power because it's what's most profitable to mine at any given moment. And therefore that is Bitcoin. It's just this metric for deciding in a dispute, what is Bitcoin, right? So Bitcoin Cash ventured off on its own way, had another upgrade to the network back to the 32 megabyte block size limit from the original Bitcoin. But then a dispute started to arise over, okay, what should the rest of the roadmap for restoring Bitcoin Cash to the original Bitcoin protocol look like? And there was a faction of people that wanted to add some new op codes, like leave a few things turned off that have been turned off over the course of the previous, I don't know,

seven or eight years at that point. And then, but then also add, what do they call it? OpDataSigVerify, which is basically a, they wanted to add an additional opcode that would subsidize a very specific kind of token issuance behavior. and then they wanted to add a few other Um, It was like three or four things. major things that were pretty contentious. And then the other half of the community, this was the community, uh, or this was the half I was on was saying, Hey, let's just start at the base Bitcoin Like let's take what did Satoshi give us? protocol. Let's re-implement that. and then you know maybe we can do more you know if we've learned and whatever there's something that

else but the conservative approach would be if we're going to restore bitcoin to just restore it back to all this stuff that basically nobody ever tinkered with like let's see if satoshi was right before we start presuming that you know this other random dev from belgium is right about the the new way to implement bitcoin right and so uh by november 2018 it was basically another hash war uh wherein bsv uh the bsv nodes were trying to become uh the real bitcoin cash we were fighting for the bitcoin cash ticker now and saying hey bitcoin cash should have no block size limit it should restore the original script protocol basically all the original ideas that make bitcoin work in the

first place and then we'll go from there and um Turns out a lot of similar people, so your Roger Ver, your Jihan Wu, Hypo Yang, and a bunch of these people that were on that side colluded with Coinbase and Kraken and some of these other companies here again to say, okay, you guys just run this software. This is the real Bitcoin Cash software. We're the official Bitcoin Cash dev team. And all these SV people are crazy. They're going to go away real soon anyways. So just run this, split Bitcoin. split off any node that's trying to run sv um blocks essentially and they'll become their own chain and they'll just quit right so uh on november I think it was november 15 2018 we

split again and so now there's a bsv a bch and a btc that all you shot 256 uh mining algorithm they all share a predicate history they all sync back to the genesis block Um, and so if you did nothing, if you bought Bitcoin in early 2017 and have done nothing since you own equal parts of all three chains and you are, uh, a pragmatic member of the you know, Bitcoin civil war by de facto. And, uh, and that's kind of where we're at today. Now BSV has, has made a bunch of extra stride. BCH is at this point from a technology standpoint, basically a dead project. They're, you know, the blocks have, some of the blocks have five transactions in them, you know, for days at a time. Like there's,

it's not really getting a lot of use. They have added some new tech and done some new things, but nothing special is happening over there. And meanwhile, on BSV, we are months away from implementing the next generation node technology talking about millions of where we're literally transactions per second and Satoshi Nakamoto was the kind of scale that talking about 15 years ago. Now for some context, a million transactions a second Is faster than even the some of the fastest payment technology in the world. So that's faster than visa faster mastercard Uh and a bunch of other things but compared to bitcoin cash is capable of about 100 maybe 150 transactions a second

And bitcoin core is capable of somewhere between five and seven so total five and seven transactions per second so we are close to a million times more efficient than Bitcoin Core. And we are like 100,000 times more efficient than Bitcoin Cash. So we are talking about exponential levels of greater scale, proving that Satoshi was right 15 years ago and explaining how Bitcoin could work. We've finally started to prove out some of his more grandiose theories. And that's where the chips lay right now. Yeah, so some of the... So having lived off of crypto primarily since 2019, I still find Bitcoin Cash the most useful. And the problem is I use BSV

wherever I can. I mean, I know we had the AnyPay point of sale system. I used to buy gift cards. That was a great service. And I mean, I've done all of this stuff. But when it comes to being able to do debit cards or to actually use it, Bitcoin Cash is still ahead. And they're working on some other interesting stuff there too. They are. I don't want to criticize the Bitcoin Cashers. I think in a lot of ways, they're the cousins that I like in the Bitcoin context. But it's also, it's way more liquid because it's on all the American exchanges. So you can quickly swap it for fiat, which makes it easy to have a point of sale system. And Those sorts of things. So yeah, Bitcoin Cash has its pluses,

but you can see the adoption on Bitcoin Cash has not been what anything hoped. Frankly, the split in 2018 was really unfortunate, really set both BCH and BSV back by... years. And maybe we'll look back in a decade from now and say, that was the coffin in the nail. That's when we all died and just wouldn't admit it. So I completely concede that we are all imperfect and it was probably unwise for us to bicker of the way that we did, but it is what it is today. And I want to get into some Well, yeah. of the other interesting stuff that some of the the difficulties that I'm having with, with, with BSV. I, but even as it relates to this, I think the thing that

bothers me the most is that there are now 1.3 billion CBDC accounts globally, I think versus 580 million crypto accounts. And, uh, you know, it's, I mean, you've got China, you have, uh, some digital rupee. There are 11 countries that have implemented CBDCs and, uh, And if you look at the rate of adoption, there were only 30 countries even exploring CBD food in 2020, and now it's 130. The rollout is incredibly brisk. And so I guess to your point, this whole thing that happened in 2017, 2018, that basically gave... the opportunity for CBDC to, to really jump on the scene. And in fact, the irony is,

and we'll talk about this. I, I, I think that it's conceivable that, you know, the idea was if you have this one chain that, that, you know, all governments will have to, all, all CBDCs will have to run on this one system because it will be efficient system. And you can actually, because of the transparency and everything else bring transparency and fairness to central banks, but that's not what's happening. You're seeing like hyper ledger. If you're looking at the implementations that are happening, they're not. And by the way, I don't think central banks have that desire. And so what I'm struggling with now is, so when I go out and do these talks and I onboard people,

I've got a chart in my book where I talk about the traditional financial system does 50,000 transactions per second. So if we're going to need an alternative, then we're going to need to use multiple coins. Obviously, if BSV gets to a million, but I list BTC seven transactions per second and then BCH, whatever it is, 260, Ravencoin. I list a few others and then I look at BSV. But then when people go look up BSV, it's like everybody's talking about using BSV as the platform for CBDCs. And so then, so it's a legitimate criticism. And then people are like, wait a minute, are you? And then I have to think to myself, am I actually going out and, you know, am I getting rugged on this?

Am I inadvertently pushing people to cbdc so there's there's that which I think is a is is kind of a marketing and a positioning thing and then the other thing that that troubles me is the the latest this bsv association node agreement thing yeah which so my so my question is and I look I understand the arguments so there are a lot of people that that make the argument that crypto is used for crime and and you know you know you want something that works within the law and the only people that would want something that works outside of the law, they must be drug dealers or child traffickers. The reality is, and I've done some polling, the bigger concern is the fact that we have a government,

at least in the United States, that is violating constitutional rights, that is censoring people, that is not beyond censoring financial transactions based on political speech, which to me is a much bigger problem than drugs. It's a much bigger problem than money laundering. And in fact, the truth of the matter is, if everybody was running on one global thing, trading in diamonds and other things. people will just start It's not going to stop illicit behavior. So I'm struggling with um what the node agreement means in terms of censorship and if that just means it's going to be we're going to comply first and then you know dig into it later uh and what that means I i understand the

concept of honest nodes but when I read it the honest node concept is a technical consideration not a legal I i don't understand that argument and then and then also just this um because I've dug into this. So so people aren't I've heard Craig say that there are four for CBDC implementations, which Craig said a lot of things, so I'll believe it when I actually see it. But of all the ones that are already out there, they're not using BSV. So what are your thoughts on this? Am I missing something? So there's a lot to unpack there. And I'm coming at it from a similar place as you, where I don't like CBDCs because I know likely how they will be implemented. But...

You know, when it comes to BSV, it's a little bit like Internet technology. Like I've been an advocate of Internet technology as a way to make people more free for, I don't know, since the 90s at this point. And like, has the Internet made people more free? Like, I guess in some regards, like we're able to communicate more easily. And I think that that has made us, you know, at least given us a propensity to learn how to be more free or given us some of those opportunities. But. in many ways, we've become a lot less free because of the proliferation of Internet tech, saying about Silicon Valley. kind of like what we were we've actually lost a lot of I mean,

sovereignty over our own data and things, too. And so I look at BSV and what it could be used for, and it's a benign technology. It's like a hammer. And you can use a hammer to kill somebody, or you can use a hammer to build a house. And you can't really blame the hammer for either thing. Now, that's one part of the conversation. The other side is, yeah, but when some of the key people that are involved are the ones advocating for it to be used for this thing that perhaps we don't like, that's a little bit different. And I think that that's a fair criticism, but... I think one of the really important things to understand is that if your CBDC is issued on something like Ethereum,

something like Hyperledger, or if it's issued on both of which use an account-based state system. So like a bank account, for example, your bank can say, you know what, your bank accounts closed because it's not on anybody's ledger but ours and your account is in control of us. And so we are going to, you know, put a hold or put a stop or we're going to change your balance. And what are you really going to do right now? Bitcoin, because it works like a cash system, it is literally like cash in your hand. And so if you issue a CBDC using sats on the ledger as the underlying asset, now they don't really have the ability to seize or confiscate or truly control your tokens when issued

that way in the same way. And so instead you're actually using whatever the CBDC is, whatever fiat standard is kind of a unit of account, but it's ultimately undergirded by the sats on which they sit. Now, that does two things, and I think this is actually really important. you can move your own coins if you have your private keys and in order to stop you you'd have to go through a very big rigmarole to make that stop now the second thing is that in my opinion anyways the most powerful thing that a central bank has and the reason they have power in the issuance of the currency is that we can't know how and when and how much that currency is issued so like we know that 30 trillion dollars or

something was printed out of nowhere over the last The COVID print was the couple of years. biggest inflation event in world history. But the math is, you know, we're just trusting the Fed's ledger as to what actually happened too. So we can't audit it. We don't know the value. We can't know. We don't know how much is in circulation. And Bitcoin changes that too. You cannot... issues an asset on Bitcoin without having the amount of that asset being instantly globally auditable. And so if you issue an asset like the dollar or like anything else, um, on Bitcoin, you don't get that ability to front run and say, ah, yeah, we gave, we gave chase bank of America and stuff. We gave them the first

hundred billion dollars like three weeks ago and let them kind of front run everybody and pay their own bills and do, you know, like the malfeasances that, that the central banking system allows. And so while I don't like central banks and I don't really like the way the of part of the octopus commercial banks are kind tentacles of the Federal Reserve System, issuing them over something like BSV actually solves my main two criticism, which is instant feasibility and no auditability. It solves both those problems if issued on BSV. So in a way, it actually kind of brings them more toward us than it brings us toward them. And so I would see that as a net positive, unless there's some major

thing that I'm missing about that whole concept. Well, does it? Because what are the, like, you're probably not gonna have your own private keys. It's probably gonna be a full custody solution under this model, right? Like if you assume that people are going to issue it as it is, as opposed to tokenizing on top of BSV, and what if you tokenize on top of BSV, you can program it however you want. You can still have all of the programmability. It's just that it's on top of BSV, which that doesn't actually, There are all kinds of shenanigans that you can pull on that. I'm sure you could program things on top of BSV in the same way you can on top of Ethereum. It would definitely depend

how it's implemented. However, the way to implement it in the way that is the most scalable is to put it on top of SACs, which... then applies to what I'm saying. Now, you could run it in script and you could run it like an app and basically make it an account-based system, but that would be a lot more difficult and that doesn't scale for all kinds of reasons. So it would necessarily be a niche system forever if that's the way that they're issued. So they're also stuck on having to make a technological decision that has political implications. Yeah. But they are. So that's what people are doing. So when you look at what is implemented, when you look at what China is doing,

and then you look at this thing like the regulated liability network, which to me is the scariest thing that I've seen yet, because it's basically an Uber ledger that will record all CBDC transactions and all digital asset transactions and allow for multiple third parties to be involved in censoring and monitoring it. And so I look up regulated liability network. I will need to study that. I don't know what that is, so I would need to learn about it myself. And it goes from bad to worse because once you start looking at, for instance, how stocks work, the way that stocks work in the United States is ridiculous. There's one company, DTCC, that controls all of the stock certificates.

They're an unnecessary third party moving into a blockchain era, right? But- Regulated liability network is being developed in conjunction with DTCC. Rather than getting rid of DTCC, they're including DTCC as another third party on top of a permission blockchain connected to CBDC. So what I'm saying that this stuff is like, I understand conceptually. Yeah, if everybody used BSV and they used it based on that, it would be great. But that's not what they're doing. And that's not what their intent is. What Congress has the power? Who wants transparency? I've heard there's as much as $21 trillion missing. The amount of fraud in the US system is absolutely out of control.

So that's my issue. I mean, look, I don't think people are going to adopt BSV. But the problem that creates in the meantime is I'm going out and saying, hey, use... BSV so that you don't get stuck with CBDC. And at the same time, like the main messaging out here is CBDCs are inevitable. Everything's going to be on BSV. And I'm just saying it creates a, it's challenging. And as it relates to the BSV association agreement, like I worry about that also. Which I haven't addressed yet. So let me- So as I, you know, while I, again, agree with your fears, like if they're just going to go to some other system that isn't based on a blockchain at all, then it's a little bit irrelevant anyways.

Well, it's not irrelevant. It's not irrelevant if this is a mass noncompliance movement. If this is a people getting together, what I'm suggesting is, why don't we just say fiat never works, whether it's digital or otherwise? Why don't we look at the fact that actually separating money in state is something that can transform society and let's deal with it at the individual level. And I agree. And that's, so, so that's, you know, I've, I've not written about this in a long time, but I wrote about this, I think pre BSV talking about underlying sacks as the, essentially the gold standard that underlies the new issued Fiat. So basically the way that like a private bank would have, you know,

before 1913 is basically, you know, you get bank of Boston would issue a certain amount of, actual notes that could be redeemable in actual silver or whatever and if you use sats as that underlying asset then you can have an exchange from the issued dollar to the relative amount of sats so that the definition of a dollar includes the understanding of a certain amount of sats that underlie it so there's a lot of ways to go about um issuing this kind of stuff and again it's it's about the tool set like if you've just put a bunch of psychos in charge of things which is the world we've lived in for a hundred plus years now uh you know as it pertains to banking then we're gonna get a

psychopathic system globally and and I'm not really sure how to how to stop that except for if you have the underlying asset you can choose not to use the fiat that underlies it like bsv allows you to choose can I just send you the SATs hey man, outside of whatever else could be written on the SAT? And so that becomes an option, which I think is really, really key. So for your privacy and for your critical function stuff, use the underlying asset. But if you're going to go buy a Slurpee at 7-Eleven or whatever else, and they're not accepting BSV, but they do accept the other token, the ability to rapidly convert your BSV to $4 to get your stuff at the Quickie Mart,

that's an option. So it's... And frankly, if that's the way things go, I don't know. and we're heading toward tyranny in so many ways anyways, that I'm not really sure where our option to choose a path that has none without... without having to concede that we're just going to bring some everywhere we go. Like even when we try to shed our baggage, we can't shed our baggage all the way unless we completely exit, not just the dollar, but exit society. And that's not something I'm willing to do because I don't think, you know, being a separatist hermit is going to solve those problems. Now I may change my mind as I get older, but for now,

like I want to live in a neighborhood and be part of society, at least to a degree. So yeah, Well, that's a separate thing. I'm actually writing, it might turn into a book on the fact that we need America 2.0 from first principles. But my point on this is the default is a one world technocracy. This is what people have been working towards for a long time. This is when you look at what the Bank of International Settlements is doing and even how they're rolling out CBDC and the chair of the Bank of International Settlements has said, this is about control. This is about monitoring. I mean, these aren't conspiracy theories. So what I'm suggesting is, The default will be,

and based on their actions already, unless we come up with something different and unless we exit their system, the default is tyranny. I don't accept tyranny. So what I suggest is we exit the dollar as quickly as we can, start using decentralized alternatives In a parallel economy now, it's not going to be everybody, but this is kind of a modern day revolution of sorts. And then while simultaneously, I think we have to go back. have a fundamental question. I actually think we have to centered around whether or not we have free will because the model that the technocrats are trying to implement is actually based on the idea that we do not have free will and so I think that like that's the

level of conversation that we need to have something happened to america along the way whether our founding principles were wrong whether there was something in the constitution or the enforcement of the constitution we need to have that conversation and we need to I'll start it, I don't have the answers, but I certainly can start by asking a whole bunch of questions and we need to have that conversation. And I actually think, Blockchain is a big part of what is probably the operational corruption that has destroyed America. I think it's been the collusion of big business and government that has been the downfall. And a lot of this is because we have systems that have

no accountability, that aren't tracked, But I don't think... et cetera. you can apply a blockchain to an existing corrupt system. I don't think existing corrupt systems like the one that we're in now in the United States are going to adopt a platform that's going to provide transportation. That's going to provide. I would tend to agree. And I think that's, it's obvious at this point that, you know, they're willing to do all kinds of things to undermine the tech and it's because they don't want to adopt that tech, you know, until they're good and ready to adopt it exactly the way they want it to. So, yeah, So moving on to your next question about the BSV Association.

So they created this network access rules concept. Now it's based on an older concept that they used to call DAR, the digital asset recovery concept, but it changes it quite a bit from a focus on digital asset recovery and it makes it a little more about um basically managing traffic on the network now I'm new to this I had no insight uh that this was coming out or the form in which it was coming out so I i got it about a week ago when everybody else did and I've had to um digest it a little bit and also send it to our our company's attorneys because I run a a mining pool on bsv so this is directly relevant to my business and um

That's been trying to explain all of that to my attorney to come up with an opinion as to like, okay, how obligated are we to abide by the Swiss entity's mandate and all of this other stuff? But I've thought about it personally. My knee-jerk reaction is to say like, hey, man, if Bitcoin Association is going to be this arbiter, then what are we even needed for as an honest node giving proof of work and that kind of thing? But about like all of my in sitting and thinking complaints about Bitcoin from the last 15 years, my big ideas about Bitcoin making people better, like that the incentive system is going to necessarily make people want to cooperate better.

And this will make people more capitalistic, but the best way to compete is to cooperate and all of these other things that I've said about proof of work. for years now, I've been wrong. So what has actually happened is that Bitcoin has made most people that have interacted with it deeply, it's made them objectively worse, that people have undermined proof of work since day one. they've colluded and created You know, social engineering and civil attacks on the network in order to make Bitcoin core what it is, this terrible Franken monster of, this thing that kind of looks you know, like Bitcoin, but actually isn't. And, you know, it's been a big disappointment.

And so I started doing research. So one of the other things that is implemented is this concept of the alert key, which is something that Satoshi created and issued, I believe it was in 2013. and then it got turned off for the final time, I think in 2016 or 17. So not that long ago, much more in like the modern Bitcoin era. Now what the alert key was supposed to do is allow the issuer. So Satoshi Nakamoto as the issuer of the currency. So he's kind of making himself like the, not the mint itself, but like the, the arbiter of the mint, which I guess he is, because he issued the protocol, right? So, but it allowed him and only him to create network wide warnings or directives on

how to manage the network if it's under attack. Now, the reason for that can be all kinds of things. But this is not something that he ever clarified in code, and he didn't ever really write. He just kind of said, here's this tool, and if you get a message from me, it's probably really urgent and everybody needs to listen. But it was never used. It never got used for anything. And so its use was very theoretical and never... basically never got tested and then because of like once he disappeared I can't remember who had there was some talk that maybe mark carpelli's from uh mount gox had the alert key and there was all this stuff about like wait is the alert key even in the hands

of somebody that can be trusted and so they literally just shut it off network wide and said okay that's the whole alert key thing is gone but I also think it's relevant that at the time there was a creation of this concept called the Bitcoin Foundation, of which Satoshi Nakamoto was a founding member. And part of what the Bitcoin Foundation was supposed to do was to... I didn't realize that. Okay, interesting. Yeah, and a lot of people don't. It was very old and it was when Bitcoin was in its cradle. Not a lot of people were paying attention. And then as soon as Satoshi kind of faded away, it got really written off by... essentially the small block or the people that control

btc they were like you know what bitcoin foundation doesn't have any power over anything and so it just kind of went away but There is something, if you look at its constitution, conversations in the if you look at the creation of Bitcoin Foundation, that it was kind of like setting up a little bit of a governance council for the sake of, hey, under emergencies, it can't just be up to whichever software dev is awake at night and gets the red alarm and decides what to do in an emergency. So we need some people whose job it is to to sort of do that and I committee and now if you think it should be done by look at who the members are it's actually guys uh if I recall like guys like

vinnie lingham I think was a board member um so was uh john matonis was uh was a was I think the founding president if I recall roger vera was there early I don't know how early but he was in early so there was a second actually craig wright is a member of the bitcoin foundation he obviously joined a little late I think he joined in 2014 before anybody had discussed whether or not he was satoshi nakamoto so that's also a curiosity but um they kind of existed to do a little bit what the Bitcoin association is doing with NAR. Now it never got pushed out like an edict or anything like that. So it just kind of died on the vine. But if you look at the alert key and Satoshi helping set

up the Bitcoin foundation, you kind of see he had a little bit of this intention for some extra management under pressure. And if you look at the new, the network access rules stuff, Most of it is not about returning stolen coins like that is mentioned, but the overwhelming majority is kind of defining a few types of attacks on Bitcoin. So what if there's an overwhelming hash power based DOS attack? What do we do? And it's essentially, okay, so what we will do as the association, we will coordinate which block is the last valid block, and we will ignore the proof of work if we all know that that proof of work is malicious. So if we can see clearly that it's malicious,

we'll make that decision and move on. And then other things like, okay, now what if somebody has a lot of hash power and maybe they're not malicious, but what if their action on the network with a lot of hash power is degrading the So let's say if like Bitmain network in some way? were to start mining BSV and 99% of hash power is Bitmain's, but they're using a node version that has a five megabyte block size limit. and so every block that gets mined is only five megabytes and it's censoring millions of transactions across the network and degrading people's use of the network so you could argue okay that might not be an attack but it is an unacceptable degradation and therefore

we need to coordinate act and make sure that the network is just usable and so this is relevant because we had a similar thing that happened last year where uh there was a pool that was doing exactly that like it just was a degraded user experience and nobody could get in touch with this pool that had all this hash power but had their nodes set stupid And it was it was degrading experience. We're all like, I mean, literally it was it was me because I'm the CEO of GorillaPool and I'm on the phone with the CEO of Tal, who's on the phone with the guy that manages quad link and some of these other pools on BSV. And we're all like, hey, what the hell do we do? What's the right thing to do?

What does the white paper say we should do? And we're having these calls from like all night. I was up all night that first night. And we all kind of were saying like, shit, like should we ask Craig? And it's like, well, no, if we bring Craig in, that's kind of, that's a conflict with him and just all this other crap. So it just, it was really hairy. And then ultimately they just kind of went away anyway. So the problem was, solved itself by just sort of luckily going away, but it really illustrated we need to have some of these processes defined. And so In that sense, I think the network access rules are probably a net good, although just like everything else,

governance and then there's you add a layer of an opportunity for corruption to creep into that layer of governance and then you've got fresh problems. So I still, I have very mixed feelings about it, directly affects my company, especially because it but I don't overtly hate it. but I am also very uncomfortable about it. So it's a little bit of a rough one for me right now. Yeah, well, look, I know you've got to go and I appreciate the extra time. We haven't even scratched the surface though. We haven't even gotten into Craig Wright. We haven't gotten into the lawsuits or COPA. I would love to have you back if you'd be willing to come back because I think we need to- I'd be very happy to,

for sure. To finish the, well, this is going to be ongoing but I actually think the for a long time, point you just made is I believe we have a fundamental- we need to have a fundamental conversation about governance period. I mean, again, this is what we're dealing with politically. So, so, This is what we're doing. so I think there's some big thinking that has to be done here. And I think you're right. I think people have let, I know I I've been let down by the, by the behavior of, of, of people in this space as well. So, so we need to take that information. What do we do with that information? So that's, that's a topic for another conversation. Well, so I know you got to go where,

All right. where can people find you? What's the best, best way for people to, all over. So I have KurtWookertJR.com. That'll link you out to all my social, but I'm literally at KurtWookertJR everywhere. So you can find me on X, Facebook, Instagram, Telegram, anywhere else at that handle. And you can watch me on CoinGeek channels. I do my podcasts and, um, you know, my streams and my publishing. So I write an article a week as well. All of that is on coin geek. So if you want to read my official stuff, it comes out there. And if you want to just follow me, the person I'm at Kurt worker, Jr. Everywhere. Okay, great. Well, thank you. I, again, I know it was a little bumpy.

This is my, uh, my first time doing this. The next one will be smoother, but I really appreciate your time. Thanks for sure. Thank you, Aaron. Bye. Bye.